School of Public Policy

 

Intro:

Welcome to policy chats. The official podcast of the School of Public Policy at the University of California, Riverside. I'm your host, Kevin Karami. Join me and my classmates as we learn about potential policy solutions, for today's biggest societal challenges.

Kevin: 

Joining us today is experienced attorney Thy Bui. I had the opportunity to chat with her about the journey, key challenges, and valuable advice on being a practicing lawyer. Thank you so much, Ms.Bui for taking the time to join me on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this discussion a lot. I know a lot of our students are interested in law school and in the same line of work that you do. So I thought a good way to begin the discussion would be if you can kind of outline what your work is. So our audience understands and also like what motivated you to end up where you are today. 

Thy:

So I work as a litigator in private practice. I work at a national law firm where I typically represent employers defending litigation that has been filed against them and various state and federal courts throughout California. As far as what brought me here, it wasn't really a lot of intention. It was a lot of just happenstance. I spent my undergrad years at UC Riverside without really a plan. And all I knew is I didn't want to be bored. And so I looked at some programs at school. I was a political science and Spanish major. And when I found out about the UCDC program, I ended up interning for what was then basically that the DC City Attorney's office handled some really interesting litigation as an intern and realized that this was an interesting profession that would probably keep me from getting bored. 

Kevin:

Do you think a lot of students should take similar approach where they don't know exactly where they're going to end up 5-10 years from now? Or do you think students nowadays, especially because it seems like continues to get more competitive, have any more written out specific plan on their future careers.

Thy:

I am a fan of understanding your strengths and your interests through a learning process rather than having this idea of what your life should look like.I think that's counter-intuitive to a lot of high-achieving academic types, especially people that find themselves in the profession  like mine. But the reason why I say that is a lot of really demanding professions are not suitable for a lot of different people. And it doesn't mean you're smart, it doesn't mean you're not capable. Just that this isn't for you. It's especially in terms of what I do. Being a lawyer, being a litigator, being in court, having to stand up my feet. I joke all the time that this job is essentially like doing homework for living in some ways. If you hate doing like scut work like writing essays or doing a lot of reading and learning about new topics that may confuse you, this is not the profession for you. There are other aspects of the profession that might be that might suit your sensibilities, but this may not be it, right? While I think sort of a rough plan to figure out where you want your life to go is not a bad thing. Picking some childhood fantasy about wanting to be something specific. And then just sort of like being lazer are focused on that and not stopping to look at other options. Because sometimes can be a mistake.

Kevin:

Is that a common mistake? Do you think that happens where students have that tunnel vision of I have to do this, my life has to happen in this particular order. And if something goes wrong, then it all goes through. And do you feel like that's something that happens pretty often? 

Thy: 

I think it is. I think taking a more sort of taking life as it comes at you. I think tends to build more resilience which you need to succeed in these really challenging professions anyway. You know what, I saw a lot as I was coming to the ranks. So I went to I went to a public schools including UC Riverside until I got to law school. What I noticed, by the way, I should just clarify, went to law school at the University of Southern California. So what I noticed was people were very used to succeeding all of the time, right? And everything that they did. And then there was going to be some point where they approach some sort of challenge that was new to them were they weren't going to succeed at the first instance because that's just physically impossible. At some point that's going to happen. And I was used to making mistakes and not doing things quite right and it's being okay with that. Versus what I saw. A lot of my law school classmates sort of get that surprising grade. They've never gotten for the first time. They didn't know how to react. They thought their life was over. And then it sort of reverberated for them as they continue the way through the profession. Something interesting that does happen specifically in the legal profession is several years after law school, a lot of your classmates are no longer lawyers. I think it's not a bad thing. It's just people decided to fight life, sort of take them where it should. And so they realized, you know, I got this great education. I don't need to use it in this specific way. There are lots of other challenging, interesting things that I can do that are more suitable for my interests and my abilities. 

Kevin:

That kind of, that goes into the next question I was going to ask. What's a common mistake you see particularly in students interested in going to law school. I'm interested in went to law school in the future to what's something that you see that you wish you could tell them when you see it. 

Thy:

Sure. I always kinda same theme, I guess I've been I've been harping on it without realizing it the whole time, is that I think people think that there's a set path to this and there really isn't. I mentioned, I think I mentioned I did major in polystyrene is actually that came later and it wasn't because I wanted to go to law school, so I actually came into use Riverside. I can't remember whether I was undeclared. I may have been, but my initial my initial major was actually Spanish language. I know what I was going to do with that. I had no idea. I thought maybe like, I don't know, maybe I'll teach high school Spanish. Maybe I'll try to be in language like specialists, but with the government agency or something like that. It was just the class I enjoyed in high school. So I picked it. These days where it comes in handy is when I traveled to Spanish-speaking areas and people have a giggle because I'm an Asian woman that is a fluent Spanish speaker. It's one of those things where I think just having this, like you said, the tunnel vision, I think can be a big mistake. So there are many, many things I think that UCR is really wonderful for. One of that is iit's a challenging but sort of casual learning environment. There's a lot of pressure or competition. And I was somewhat, and I think a lot of students there this way to sort of thrived under those conditions. And so you should really leverage those as best you can to sort of understand yourself and to learn more about sort of where you think and how you think you will thrive as you make plans to exit university and continue on through life. 

Kevin:

Yeah, definitely. I think that's really, it's really awesome to hear from someone who's actually in the field what it is that we can be doing, what we can be doing better, and what kind of mistakes we're making. Kind of shifting. I'd like to shift a little bit to the current work you're doing right now as a lawyer, can you outline like a really common challenge that you come across that you think people don't know about being a lawyer, like what's something about being a lawyer, a problem or an issue or any kind of obstacle that you have to face that just the lame man may not be aware of. 

Thy:

So my answer for that I think will be really unexpected. So it's going to be colored by the contexts that I worked in, right? So I work in private practice. I think a lot of students because I know you server-side, especially it's one of the most diverse campuses in the country and also a lot of first-generation college students with lower-income backgrounds. I was among those demographic. A lot of people sort of seek out legal careers for the financial stability. Not understanding sort of how money is made a legal profession. So if you are in private practice where that is the sector of the professional that tends to pay the highest salaries and the like. The $200,000 plus starting salaries at large law firms that students will hear about. What people don't realize. Is there some point if you survive in this system, it becomes a sales job. And a lot of people don't know that somebody has to pay you to do your legal work, right? And if you will, the house, they have to play you our clients and the clients that can pay the fees that support those salaries are often Fortune 500 companies that you have to convince to pay you for your services. So I think like, Oh, I'm really smart. I'm good at reading, I'm good at legal analysis. I'm good on my feet, they don't ask themselves, Am I good at sales? How are my soft skills? Do people relate to me? Can I convince somebody that, like, I'm fun to work with? These are not things that people think about. 

Kevin:

That's really interesting because that was actually going to be something that I was going to ask next. What kind of skills should students be trying to work on? And I think soft skills will often seem to often get overlooked. People will try and have the, check the boxes of the hard skills and say, Well, I've got all these writing skills, reading skills, analysis like you'd mentioned. But if they don't have the people skills, then it doesn't go into where does that kind of would you say that's related to the importance of building a strong and network throughout your career as a student and also afterwards, you know, having, knowing the right person at the right time, is that something that you really think about? 

Thy:

It is, the soft skills, especially being an employment layer. A lot of times the cases I deal with are often result from misalignment of what somebody thinks their job is. Versus what their employer actually values, right? A lot of times that relates sometimes the soft skills like friends and someone that's a manager. You get promoted to management because you have the core, you have the core functions of the job mastered. And now your job is now to manage people, to help them perform their core functions of the job and it becomes a people job, right? But sometimes people that perform the core functions of the job aren't so good people. I tell people all times soft skills are real skills and they should be overlooked as something that you need to develop. And if you want to succeed in these in these roles with respect to. The networking aspect of the job, yeah, I mentioned this particular job, if you wanna be in private practice, eventually becomes a sales job, right? The networking is real. Some good advice that was given to me when I was a junior associate at a large law firm I started at was that like you stay chained to your desk, like you are really limiting your opportunities. And so I made it a point to join various groups, have lawyers, we call the bar associations, go to conferences and just meet people that were my peers. I didn't try to shake hands with a CEO. Not that like I met a few, but like I was just some kid to them right now. Now, I'm about 15 years out. I'm in a position where a lot of people that I met when we were like junior lawyers kept the ranks where we saw a lot of funny things together. They're sending me the work that fuels my practice. And that was just because I went out and made friends that were other lawyers and other people like in these spaces back when I was junior and they still have we still have time for each other. Now, if you try to meet someone that's in a position that try to send you work. They're gonna be like, okay, yeah, it was nice I met somebody but I don't know that right. Versus my one of my friends, for instance, is the she is the Executive Assistant to the general counsel for Nationwide Insurance. SoI can call her or text her a joke. But everything I want because we're were actually friends, right. Instead of saying, Hey, why don't you send me some legal cases? And it's a very different kind of relationship. 

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Kevin:

One thing that i, and this is kind of going to, the next question I have is networking is something that I didn't really experience until I got exposed to it at UC Riverside. I really didn't find it. I was one of those who tried to check as many of the hard skills. I want to be good at this reading and writing. And I didn't realize how important people skills are kind of somewhat similar to that. One thing that I like asking those in the legal field is, what kinds of differences do you think exist from when you were on your journey from a UC Riverside student to where you ended up versus students like me right now, do you think there are some differences based on developments like things like the prevalence of social media, changes in government and politics. Are there any like maybe any other social or cultural shifts that have occurred in that time. Are there any like stark differences that you notice, or is it more similar than most people might think? 

Thy:

I started in a very interesting time. I started at right before the 2008 global economic recession. And now there's that weird stuff happening, but Silicon Valley Bank this morning, but we'll see what happens there. But I think the biggest change I've seen in the 15 or so years I've been practicing is that the velocity of everything, right? Everything just moves 1,000 times faster because we're all so connected. When I started email was still kind of knew. It wasn't actually knew, but it was new to lawyers. Now there's the prevalence of messaging platforms, other internal project management tools, other things that are web-based virtual meetings. I've found that especially with the prevalence of remote and hybrid work, not that I don't think those things are valuable. In fact, I've been largely remote for half my career. I found that that can be a challenge for especially more junior lawyers to develop what we talked about this really valuable soft skills when you're just mostly like in your own space. Which didn't give you by video. It just requires a lot more intention. And that's easy for me to have that attention on a, on a looking back basis. But I could imagine it's quite difficult to even understand what that's intentions should be. If you're very junior and trying to figure out your way around, you don't even know who you should be trying to schedule meetings with, who you should be calling, you know, how often you should be calling them. I sometimes forget because I don't feel like I was old as I am and I don't feel like I'm someone positioned the way I am, that I forget that sometimes it's it'll freak some of the lawyer the younger layers out to like asked me if I can get out 15 min of my time and that's just bizarre to me. But I have to remember sometimes like that that I have that effect on people nowadays. 

Kevin: 

Yeah, it's really interesting the way COVID, especially these last few years, has shifted people's mindsets and how they approach things and is there anything else since COVID began that really shook your profession and your career, maybe your firm that you want it to maybe note.

Thy:

 I think again, the speed at which things move. And I think that has changed a lot also, I mentioned that I'm a litigator, so that means I appear in court pretty often. Used to be.

This goes to the velocity thing and sends that used to be a court appearances eat your whole day right. You'd have to go to court, get I'd have to if I left from Orange County to go to LA and happily like 06:00 A.M. to get there, make sure I got there in time for an 8:30 hearing. I'd have to sit through this morning Calendar, probably wouldn't be gone until I get back to my desk around like maybe like two. Now. I dial into the virtual court gallery and I might spend an hour online maybe if my case isn't called first and then I'm right back to doing what I'm doing. I think that change in workflow requires you to jump from things to think a lot faster and while you're not going places and it's not exhaust, exhausting in that sense. That mental pivot can be a little more exhausting because you don't get that downtime. 

Kevin: Yeah. And actually what I was going to ask next was what kind of consequences specifically regarding the velocity and speed of things happening? What like main consequences, negative consequences do you think have occurred or might occur in the future? As you know, more young attorneys, they're cultivated under this environment where things are moving really, really quickly all the time. 

Thy: 

I think it can be really hard to draw boundaries. I found that I was actually better at placing boundaries on my work. I'm probably before remote work became prevalent. Now, it's really odd. I like, I feel like sometimes like, Oh can I really step away from my workstation for like an hour just to go eat. Like do I really have the time for that? And I do. It's just I think I have to get on get aware of mental hurdle because I'm used to being available all the time, whether it's to my clients and even the people that I helped support and doing their work in terms of the junior associates that report up to me. 

Keving: It's fascinating to see how as things move forward 3-4-5 years down the line, how not just in the legal field really in all professions, how things will change and accommodate and adapt to the fact that, you know, like you said, we're all connected and that causes things to move so much faster. I always think that's a really fascinating topic. Kinda shifting gears. I wanted to talk a little bit about the work that you do specifically. What's a, what's a common challenge that you face specifically in your line of work that you think that people should be aware of maybe before pursuing the legal field because I also know and we talked about it a little bit earlier. There are some people who will sue, simply choose to be lawyers or doctors because of the because of the income, but they may not be the best suited for the job. 

Thy: 

I think one of the major challenges that I see, I mean, I've learned to adapt to it and I can explain how is that. I think people don't realize the level of it's just you. Like in the end, if you're doing this right, It's you making these calls and making really important decisions and how to, how to proceed in terms of like the grand strategy for a case that could be worth like recently, for instance, there was a case, I think it gets Tesla, where there was like $130 million against a company. Like you make five missteps that maybe your client gets hit with something crazy, right? So in the end, this is all going to fall to you. And while there are some ways to get some ideas about what to do next, It's up to you to figure out like, what do I need to do? What facts do I need to develop? Like who do I need to place on these teams? It's actually, it can be a lot to manage. And I think for people who are not used to ones like sort of like quick decision-making. And to just like exercising judgment, it can be a really challenging professional. 

Kevin:

One thing that I've noticed as well, like working on or working with other students who are interested in law school is it kinda goes back to the theme of the conversation we've been having as though they're interested in the income or other kinds of benefits like that, but they forget that there's so much more and I wanted to kind of hit on that point. You mentioned the fact that it's just you, is that like a challenge? That this is a kinda hit you sometimes the fact that at the end of the day it is, you are on your own. Is that beyond that question, nowadays a lot of people are connected and teamwork and communication are super valued. Do you think, do you maybe think that given the changes socially with Gen Z now entering the workforce, do you think that the independence factor where you are self-reliance is that something that you think might shift based on? Like social changes with social media is prevalence. You know, what are your thoughts on that that kind of skill?

Thy:

Because I mean, not like I think, especially when it comes to, I think how you make strategic decisions on just any major business or legal decision, right? You can only do so much crowdsourcing. I guess it's like a too many cooks in the kitchen problem, right? On the end, somebody has to make an executive call on how to, how to take a direction on something after getting, understanding what the right inputs are, then getting that information to actually like appraise those inputs, right? So while I think there might be more information or people to consult, in the end, you have to like, you know, if you get to where you want to get, you have to make that decision and you have to be okay with that decision ends up being, no matter what the consequence is because you can't, you can't control the future. 

Kevin:

I think the idea of working independently versus making those decisions, I can definitely relate to that. There have been times where I've felt that I need to make the decision here, but I'm too scared to make it or I want to kind of throw it on someone else and have them make it. So in a lot of ways, I think it is also like another soft skill at that, that decisiveness, Thy Bui to end the episode, I was wondering if you could, there's one message you could give to students who are interested in going to law school are really interested in pursuing a profession in the future. Professional career like that. What's the one piece of advice you would give and what is one thing? What's one reassurance? If you could give them?

What would it be? 

Thy: 

The piece of advice is make it fun. A lifetime of work is a long time. If you're just in it for the money and you're not having fun, you're going to burn out so fast, especially for a profession is demanding as legal profession, especially in private practice. As far as reassurances go, I am really proud alum of UC Riverside. I had such a wonderful time there. It was really transformative in terms of how it helped me understand, like what, what I was interested in, what I was good at. And it's a really safe, like sort of productive learning environment where, like I mentioned earlier, it's low pressure, low, low levels of competition among students, everyone's really supportive. Just rest assured, even if you were sort of unsure about your decision to go to the school, that if you're still there and taking advantage of the resources offers, you're in the right place. 

Kevin:

Awesome. I love to hear it. I love to hear and I especially like your advice and keep things fun and be wary of burnout. Ms. Bui, we thank you so much for taking the time to join us on the podcast. I really appreciate it and I'm really excited to share this episode. Thank you. This Podcast is a production of the UC Riverside School of Public Policy. Our theme music was produced by C code. I'm Kevin Karami till next time.